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Topic: Wierd symptom...1972 AS bug.  (Read 8047 times)

Offline ASBug

  • Varnel, Ga
  • Joined: Jan 2008
  • Posts: 3032

Wierd symptom...1972 AS bug.

« Reply #15 on: June 15, 2008, 06:41:55 PM »
Got the new Fuel pump on and it ran great (for about 10 miles to a friends house...)  After It sat for a while I jumped in and started and started and started and then it started.... Ok, maybe I have the big idle screw in too far and it is not getting enought gas.  I get going go about 1/4 mile and it dies....  "Great" I think to myself, it's flooding again.  I pop off the oil breather and look into the barrel, and I do not have the 3/4 inch of gas on top of the throttle, like I was used to.  Hummm, I tap the top of the carb and crank over and nothing.  I wrapped over the top of the engine with a towel that I had with me and pull the inlet line off of the carb and not one drop of gas came out... Strange.  I put the towel over the end of the fuel line and cranked over the engine a few rounds and went back and checked the towel, it was bone dry.  I thought to my self, "Self, this bird ain't pumping."  I went to pull off the top of the pump to check the filter and at first there was nothing, count to 2 here, then ALOT of gas came flooding out.  I quickly put the top back on and cranked it over a few times and it was sputtering and finally it evened out.  

My Guestamates are:
- I vaporlocked the fuelpump /  fuel line (see below).
- I have too many gaskets under the fuel pump  or the inlet valve, I have 2 under each of them.
- I have no idea...

I observed that when I rev the engine, the little counter weight on the side of my breather opens to a position that allows it to pull heated air off of the engine through the intake, this seems counter intuitive and I believe that this is why I might have vaporlocked the system / overheated the engine...  I have since disconnected the inlet heater tube from the engine.  I was missing all the termostat stuff except the bellows and holder, so I didn't hook them back up, and now I think that it must have controlled the "flapper" in the breather.
I ran this setup with out the inlet heater to intake hose prior to having these problems.  I am grasping at straws now, I have run the gambet from flooding to starving for fuel.  There isn't much left to replace.

Any ideas from the peanut gallery.


This is beyond the point of funny any more.  
I hope to have the diagnosis this week from Dr. Ret. Bugtech.

Thanks for letting me vent,
KC

Offline Bugnut

  • padded cell.
  • Joined: Aug 2005
  • Posts: 2953

Wierd symptom...1972 AS bug.

« Reply #16 on: June 15, 2008, 10:10:05 PM »
Clogged fuel line??? Or a clog in the filter wher eit exits the fuel tank. Either way sounds like something is clogged or not vented. Check that the tank is vented and the vent hose isnt clogged as well. :?

Offline Zen

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  • LaFayette, GA
  • Joined: Dec 2001
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Wierd symptom...1972 AS bug.

« Reply #17 on: June 15, 2008, 10:32:55 PM »
Yep, sounds like the screen filter in the tank outlet or the tank vent may be clogging up.  The vent is easy . . . wait till it does it again and loosen the gas cap and see what happens.

The tank screen is easy to check too . . . just run it out of gas first, then pull the tank out and take the big nut off the bottom . . . trouble is, every time I've needed to pull a fuel tank I had just filled up.  Since it sat for some time, my bet would be that a build up of trash, rust and gunk that used to be spread around the surface of the tank has been cut loose and is being washed down to the outlet.

This time of year you can easily get away with just removing the hose from the engine to the breather.  Just do something to block off the hole in the tin so the hot air off the engine won't get pulled back into the upper engine compartment.

Offline ASBug

  • Varnel, Ga
  • Joined: Jan 2008
  • Posts: 3032

Wierd symptom...1972 AS bug.

« Reply #18 on: June 16, 2008, 12:08:09 AM »
I was leaning more towards the vaccume on the tank theory because it seemed that as I broke the seal on the pump there was a delay and then there was gas.  
Another point is I had just FILLED IT MAJOR with gas.  It was almost out and I put like 9.8 gallons in it, I could see gas at the gas cap hole.  I could have possibly put too much???

Oh yeah, It really stinks like gas when I fill it up.  I see no leaks around the fill tube rubber, so I am thinking that the little black line is rotten at the front cannister over the passengers fender.

Any one else have any ideas...
Thanks for the continuing contributions to the enlighten the ignorant fund...
KC

Offline Ret.Bugtech

Wierd symptom...1972 AS bug.

« Reply #19 on: June 16, 2008, 08:19:03 AM »
As soon as we can get you up here we will check all that stuff. We will start with  "Itch" which is before "scatch".  Don't be taking the top off the pump to many times or you will be looking at a fuel leak you can't stop. You can check the gravity fuel flow from the tank by just pulling the fuel line off the pump .
     Everyone who has answered here has valid points to check on if you want to try them and save you a trip up here.
     Im' sorry that I couldn't look at your car this pass Sat. , but I had to get some primer on some very naked wood before the predicted Monsoons landed on me. It never happened DANG.
     Come join us this evening if you can

Offline ASBug

  • Varnel, Ga
  • Joined: Jan 2008
  • Posts: 3032

Wierd symptom...1972 AS bug.

« Reply #20 on: June 17, 2008, 01:41:50 PM »
Bug tech,
Would have loved to have came to the meeting, but I am sooooo trying to get my Bachelor's Degree OVER.  I am SOOOO DONE with school.  I have about 10 more months and it'll be done.  Any way I go to class pretty much every monday untill April of next year.

Let Zen look at the Carbie and he stated that he thought that it was trash in the idle circut.  If I cannot get ahold of you today I'm planning on pulling the carb again and going in that direction.

I still do not know why it quit pumping on Saturday though.
Zen stated that he was surprised that I seem to still have all the equipment on the car. (canisters and such...)

I look forward to meeting you.
KC

Offline ASBug

  • Varnel, Ga
  • Joined: Jan 2008
  • Posts: 3032

Wierd symptom...1972 AS bug.

« Reply #21 on: June 17, 2008, 11:02:45 PM »
Well my lovely fuel problem happened again today on the way home.  It is amazing that I am almost expecting the car to give me problems now and am surprised when it doesn't...
Today was the same situation, ran great, stoped to say hello to a new Beetle friend, jumped in it was hard to start and then it dies about 1/4 mile later.

Any way I coasted off to a side road found a good spot to rest in the shade and pulled out my checkered blanket and said to my self, I am getting to the bottom of this.

Pulled the gas cap and no hissy hissy so I proceeded to go to the back of the car and checked the carb pump and as you guessed it was dry as a bone.  So i pulled the Fuel pump top off expecting it to hiss and start flowing like it did before and a whole lotta nothing happened.

Since I have replaced my fuel pump with an apparant type 3 pump, getting to the inlet rubber hose isn't easy as it comes between the generator and intake now.  So I jack up the rear and remove the passenger's rear tire and open the fuel line just as it goes to the metal line through the fire wall.  
I have free flow gas  with little to no restrictions.  No plugged up inlet.
What else could it be, is it vapor locked, could be, but It wasn't all that hot in the engine compartment and I could hold onto the dipstick with out branding my hand, so I got to thinking, this BRAND NEW fuel pump must be actng up.  
Having had up close and personal time with the filter just moments before and still not getting any thing throught he pump I decided to take off the fuel pump and check the booger out.  I pulled it off, lines still connected and looked on the bottom, still looked new with only minimal wear, very minimal wear...I pushed up un the pump arm and was shocked that it went about 3/8 of an inch before I had any feeling of pressure.  I took a screw driver and pushed on the arm and I heard salvation in the form of a swish as it pumped gas into the carberator.  I then measured the stroke of my pump rod and found that it was basically the same height as the needed stroke.  EXACTLY. So this is my idea de jour, as the engine would heat up , things expanded and I was unable to get enough movement out of the pump to, well pump!!! I ear set the timming, drove it home the last 3 miles and then timed it again.  I think I have cured the problem.  I put on a tissue paper thin gasket that was under the old pump.
We'll see if this works.
Thanks,
KC

Offline Ret.Bugtech

Wierd symptom...1972 AS bug.

« Reply #22 on: June 18, 2008, 12:17:29 AM »
Hmmmm,  Do you know just how much the pump rod sticks out of the top of the fuel pump block at the top of the stroke ?   Did this latest problem
start after you replaced the fuel pump ?  There are 2 push rod lengths, one short one for the angled  pump and a longer one for the upright pump. Could it be you have the wrong length rod for the pump you have now ?   Make sure the fuel pump block is not cracked. These things can "lock" up the rod after the engine gets hot.

Offline ASBug

  • Varnel, Ga
  • Joined: Jan 2008
  • Posts: 3032

Wierd symptom...1972 AS bug.

« Reply #23 on: June 18, 2008, 11:24:56 AM »
Yes,
This problem reared it's ugly head when I put the new pump on.  Before mounting the new pump, I did a visual side by side of the 2 and the bases seemed to have the same characteristics.
It seems that the new pump strokes longer before it actuates the diaphram.
It ran great, today as long as I pumped the pedal when starting up after sitting at a redlight.
I must have something in the idle system, when I transition, it sputters.
I'll take the rod aout and measure it.  For a regular pump, what should the length be?

Thanks,
KC

Offline Ret.Bugtech

Wierd symptom...1972 AS bug.

« Reply #24 on: June 18, 2008, 03:08:15 PM »
Dang !! You just had to ask that question :lol:  :lol:
           The only pump rod I have laying around measures  approx. 4 1/2 inches in lenght. I'm going to assume this rod is for the vertical pump. If you take the pump off, turn the engine by hand until the rod reaches max . height.( it doesn't move much) The 4 1/2 inch. rod should stick up about
1/2 inch from the plastic block.  The angle pump rod is shorter and just barely sticks out.
      Also the pump operating lever on the vertical pump is mounted further up in the casting in contrast to the angle pump which is almost flush with the botton of the casting.  
       Send me a pic of your pump showing the operating lever if you can.

Offline ASBug

  • Varnel, Ga
  • Joined: Jan 2008
  • Posts: 3032

Wierd symptom...1972 AS bug.

« Reply #25 on: June 18, 2008, 10:25:20 PM »
Well, My rod is only 4.25 inches!
I guess that could account for a problimatic pump set up.  I have attached some photos.
Thanks,
KC

4.25  inches


new pump base


new pump

Offline ASBug

  • Varnel, Ga
  • Joined: Jan 2008
  • Posts: 3032

Wierd symptom...1972 AS bug.

« Reply #26 on: June 18, 2008, 10:27:35 PM »
Here is the old pump.
KC



Offline Ret.Bugtech

Wierd symptom...1972 AS bug.

« Reply #27 on: June 19, 2008, 08:18:30 AM »
Your new pump shows , if I'm looking at it right, that the lever is about level with the bottom of the casting. Right ?  If so it should work with the short rod if something in the workings of this pump is not weird
 , BUT I have never seen a vertical pump that was set up like this. I'm not sure what it is for.   Short rod= angle pump.    Long rod= type-1 pump just like your old pump.
    You have the long rod I belive. I gave you the wrong info . 4.25(4 1/4") is correct.  
     Hold off until I can get hold of another rod that I KNOW came off of a angle pump set-up so I can compare. My orig. shop manuel doesn't give  rod measurements.

Offline ASBug

  • Varnel, Ga
  • Joined: Jan 2008
  • Posts: 3032

Wierd symptom...1972 AS bug.

« Reply #28 on: June 19, 2008, 08:50:24 AM »
Yes, it appears that the old pump does sit in slightly from the bottom, BUT the new pump actually "pumps" about the same place as the old pump.  The new pump just "free-hangs" lower than the original pump. It does enguage slightly higher than the original pump.  This with the 2 thick gaskets I had under it was causing it to not pump as things expanded  - I think.  
Any one ever seen this type pump before?
The top looks simular to the "old style" pump shown in my haynes manual on page 4-4.  It appears that the head is off by 90 deg.
Thanks,
KC

Offline Ret.Bugtech

Wierd symptom...1972 AS bug.

« Reply #29 on: June 19, 2008, 09:02:42 AM »
You may have a old model twin carb Type-4 fuel pump.

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