Forums

Topic: The Kermy Questions Thread - and updates, Lotsa Fun!  (Read 9325 times)

Offline ASBug

  • Varnel, Ga
  • Joined: Jan 2008
  • Posts: 3032

The Kermy Questions Thread - and updates, Lotsa Fun!

« Reply #15 on: November 09, 2008, 09:49:34 PM »
OK,
It is time for another rousing game of name that wire!!!

The picture below shows 2 runs of wire one is a pigtail that has 2 pale yellow or white wires and a bare wire that go up into a loom.  The Pigtail has a round head and has a radius'ed groove running up the length of the plug.  

The second loom has 2 long brown and brown with silver dots.  There is also a white or yellow wire comming out as well.  When I see brown I think "Ground to body."

None of these appears to have been attached lately.
Any heads up on this would be appreciated.  

With the exception of the round three hole plug, all the wires have a standard copper female plug on them.

Thanks in advance for the help.
KC.

Offline Russ

The Kermy Questions Thread - and updates, Lotsa Fun!

« Reply #16 on: November 09, 2008, 10:15:33 PM »
It's hard to tell from the photo, but I think that three hole plug is the obsolete diagnostic TDC marker. You can read about it here and see if it matches what you're seeing: http://www.ratwell.com/technical/TDCMarker.html

You can most likely cut it off, or wrap it up nicely and secure it. And that's good you got the fuel pump pumping again. When I get back I'll dig through mine and test them, so we'll at least have some spares.

Offline ASBug

  • Varnel, Ga
  • Joined: Jan 2008
  • Posts: 3032

The Kermy Questions Thread - and updates, Lotsa Fun!

« Reply #17 on: November 10, 2008, 04:10:52 PM »
Close, and it looks alot like it, except he states and has a photo of a male plug and mine is a female plug.....

Any chance my bus is a girl? :shock:

I would like to look at any one elses 1976 ish bus and see where these wires go.  The only brown with silver dots that I can find on the wireing diagram is the ground to the fuel pump and another that hooks to the engine at points 85, 88y and another position.  The only problem is that it doesn't tell what these #'s translate to in real life.

Offline dubtech

  • Hixson
  • Joined: Apr 2005
  • Posts: 251

The Kermy Questions Thread - and updates, Lotsa Fun!

« Reply #18 on: November 10, 2008, 07:41:54 PM »
Taken from vintagebus.com (http://www.vintagebus.com/wiring/defs.html)

Terminal Designations (Excerpts from DIN Standard 72 552) The terminal designations do not identify the conductors, because device with different terminal designations can be connected at the two ends of each conductor. If the number of terminal designations is not sufficient (multiple-contact connections), the terminals are consecutively numbered using numbers or letters whose representations of specific functions are not standardized.


Terminal Definition
IGNITION

1 Ignition coil, ignition distributor, low voltage  
Ignition distributor with two separate electrical circuits
1a  to ignition contact breaker I
1b to ignition contact breaker II
2  short-circuit terminal (magneto ignition)
4 Ignition coil, ignition distributor, high voltage
Ignition distributor with two separate electrical circuits
4a from ignition coil I, terminal 4
4b  from ignition coil II, terminal 4
15 Switched + downstream of battery
(output of ignition/driving switch)
15a Output at dropping resistor to ignition coil and starter
GLOW PLUG AND STARTER SWITCH
17 Start
19 Preheat
BATTERY
30 input from + battery terminal, direct
30a input from + terminal of battery II
(12/24 V series-parallel battery switch)
31 Return line to battery - battery terminal or ground, direct
31b Return ine to negative battery terminal or ground, via switch or relay
(switched negative)
(12/24 V series-parallel battery)  
31a Return line to - terminal of battery II
31c Return line to - terminal of battery I
ELECTRIC MOTORS
32 Return line
(Polarity reversal possible at terminals 32-33)
33 Main terminal connection
(Polarity reversal possible at terminals 32-33)
33a Self-parking switch-off
33b Shunt field
33f For second lower-speed range
33g For third lower-speed range
33h For fourth lower-speed range
33L Counterclockwise rotation
33R Clockwise rotation
STARTER
45 Separate starter relay output; starter input (main current)
45a Output, starter I
Input, starters I and II (Two-starter parallel operation)
45b Output, starter II (Two-starter parallel operation)
48 Terminal on starter and on start-repeating relay for monitoring starting procedure
TURN SIGNAL FLASHER
49 Input
49a Output
49b Output, second turn-signal circuit
49c Output, third turn-signal circuit
STARTER
50 Starter control (direct)
50a Output for starter control
(Series-parallel battery switch)
50b Starter control with parallel operation of two starters with sequential control
50c Input at starting relay for starter I
(Starting relay for sequential control of the engagement current during parallel operation of two starters)
50d Input at starting relay for starter I
(Starting relay for sequential control of the engagement current during parallel operation of two starters)
50e Input, Start-locking relay
50f Output, Start-locking relay
50g Input, Start-repeating relay
50h Output, Start-repeating relay
ALTERNATOR
51 DC voltage at rectifier
51e DC voltage at rectifier with choke coil for daytime driving
TRAILER SIGNALS
52 Signals from trailer to towing vehicle, general
WIPER MOTOR
53 Wiper motor, input (+)
53a Wiper (+), self-parking switch-off
53b Wiper (shunt winding)
53c Electric windshield-washer pump
53e Wiper (brake winding)
53i Wiper motor with permanent magnet and third brush (for higher speed)
TRAILER SIGNAL
54 For lamp combinations and trailer plug connections  
TRAILER STOP LAMP  
54g Pneumatic valve for additional retarding brake, electromagnetically actuated
LIGHTING
55 Fog lamps
56 Headlamp
56a High beam, high-beam indicator lamp
56b Low beam
56d Headlamp-flasher contact
57 Side-marker lamp: motorcycles, mopeds. Abroad also cars, trucks, etc.
57a Parking lamp
57L Parking lamp, left
57R Parking lamp, right
58 Side-marker lamps, tail lamps, license-plate lamps and instrument-panel lamps
58b Tail-lamp changeover for single-axle tractors
58c Trailer plug-and-receptacle assembly for single-conductor tail-lamp cable with fuse in trailer
58d Variable-intensity instrument-panel lamp, tail-lamp and side-marker lamp
58L Side-marker lamp, left
58R Side-marker lamp, right; license-plate lamp
ALTERNATOR (magneto, generator)  
59 AC voltage, output, rectifier, input
59a Charging armature, output
59b Tail-lamp armature, output
59c Stop-lamp armature, output
61 Alternator charge-indicator lamp
TONE-SEQUENCE CONTROL DEVICE
71 Input
71a Output to horns 1 & 2, low
71b Output to horns 1 & 2, high
72 Alarm switch (rotating beacon)
INTERIOR
75 Radio, cigarette lighter
76 Speaker
77 Door-valve control/td>
SWITCHES
Break-contact and changeover switches
81 Input
81a 1st output, break side
81b 2nd output, break side
Make-contact switches
82 Input
82a 1st output
82b 2nd output
82z 1st input
82y 2nd input
Multiple-position switches
83 Input
83a Output, position 1
83b Output, position 2
83L Output, left-hand position
83R Output, right-hand position
CURRENT RELAY
84 Input, actuator and relay contact
84a Output, actuator
84b Output, relay contact
SWITCHING RELAY
85 Output, actuator (end of winding to ground or negative)
86 Start of winding
86a Start of winding or 1st winding
86b Winding tap or 2nd winding  
Relay contact for break and changeover contacts
87 Input
87a 1st output (break side)
87b 2nd output
87c 3rd output
87z 1st input
87y 2nd input
87x 3rd input  
Relay contact for make contact
88 Input
Relay contact for make and changeover contacts (make side)
88a 1st output
88b 2nd output
88c 3rd output
Relay contact for make contact
88z 1st input  
88y 2nd input  
88x 3rd input  
ALTERNATOR and VOLTAGE REGULATOR
GENERATOR and GENERATOR REGULATOR
B+ Battery positive
B- Battery negative
D+ Dynamo postive
D- Dynamo negative
DF Dynamo field
DF1 Dynamo field 1
DF2 Dynamo field 2
Alternator with separate rectifier  
J Excitation winding positive
K Excitation winding negative
Mp Center point terminal
U,V,W Alternator terminals
DIRECTION INDICATOR (turn-signal flasher)
C First indicator lamp
C0 Main terminal connection for separate indicator circuits actuated by the turn-signal switch
C2 Second indicator lamp
C3 Third indicator lamp (e.g., when towing two trailers)
L Turn-signal lamps, left
R Turn-signal lamps, right

Offline dubtech

  • Hixson
  • Joined: Apr 2005
  • Posts: 251

The Kermy Questions Thread - and updates, Lotsa Fun!

« Reply #19 on: November 10, 2008, 08:46:09 PM »
Double post, D'oh!

Offline certdubtech

  • In the Garage...
  • Joined: May 2006
  • Posts: 3199

The Kermy Questions Thread - and updates, Lotsa Fun!

« Reply #20 on: November 10, 2008, 09:09:56 PM »
Dang, Hal....
All that knowledge.  seems a shame to waste it all.  I think I'll start forwarding all of the late model type 2s to you.
 :wink:

 :lol:

Offline certdubtech

  • In the Garage...
  • Joined: May 2006
  • Posts: 3199

The Kermy Questions Thread - and updates, Lotsa Fun!

« Reply #21 on: November 10, 2008, 09:10:52 PM »
Just kidding, dude... put the gun down. :shock:

Offline dubtech

  • Hixson
  • Joined: Apr 2005
  • Posts: 251

The Kermy Questions Thread - and updates, Lotsa Fun!

« Reply #22 on: November 11, 2008, 07:00:23 AM »
Hmmm, now where did I put that can of Bus-B-Gone......      :)

Offline ASBug

  • Varnel, Ga
  • Joined: Jan 2008
  • Posts: 3032

The Kermy Questions Thread - and updates, Lotsa Fun!

« Reply #23 on: November 11, 2008, 08:38:20 AM »
Dubtech-
WOW.
WOW.
WOW.
Thanks.
I did attempt to locate that on my own before posting...

I am hopefull that the wires actually do go tho these postitions.

Have a great day!

KC :D

Offline ASBug

  • Varnel, Ga
  • Joined: Jan 2008
  • Posts: 3032

The Kermy Questions Thread - and updates, Lotsa Fun!

« Reply #24 on: November 11, 2008, 09:48:57 PM »
Hose is in.
Fab date on it was FEB '02...
Seems to be pliable.
I ordered a little extra...
Hope to attempt to fire it up later in the week.
Thanks for the help, I expect I'll need more (mental...)
Thanks,
KC :D

Offline ASBug

  • Varnel, Ga
  • Joined: Jan 2008
  • Posts: 3032

The Kermy Questions Thread - and updates, Lotsa Fun!

« Reply #25 on: November 20, 2008, 11:06:24 PM »
OK,
After a bone chilling 2 hours on my back and stretching over the engine bay hatch, I have now compleated the install of the fuel hose, with the exception of hanging the fuel filter.  I seem to be missing a clip or bracket or something... While I had the injectors out, I put new seals, large and small, as well as cleaned them.  Any way it is like 30 somthing outside and I tried to start the bus and got nadda.  Engine is turning over and the oil light goes off after 4 rounds or so.  I cannot tell if the pump is pumping, when the key is turned.  
After a few minutes of trying to start and realizing that this was not going to happen, I sprayed some (6 seconds worth) of starter fluid into the rubber boot after the AFM, sinched down the clamps. and tried again.  Got Nadda again.  I believe that it isn't sparking now.  Pulled the distributor cap off and the points are corroded around the edges, but the faces of the points are clean and every thing looks new.  

My next plan is to take a timming light and hook it up and turn it over and see if it lights up.  If the timming light lights up I'll look at the injectors or the pump next.  If the timming light isn't lighting up, (12) What should I check next?

I know I need to bleed the fuel rail at that little bolt, but I was freezing my butt off....

Any way, any suggestions would be appreciated.  Oh yeah, one of the Injectors was a fairly new Bosh unit (blue head), the other 3 were all VW's (grey heads).

Thanks,
KC :D

Offline dubtech

  • Hixson
  • Joined: Apr 2005
  • Posts: 251

The Kermy Questions Thread - and updates, Lotsa Fun!

« Reply #26 on: November 21, 2008, 07:39:48 AM »
Check out www.type2.com, they've got a lot of good info on there.  Look under the "Bartno Tek" section - it has a lot of good FI information.

For instance:

Here is a good description of how the double relay works, provided by the Bentley manual:

1) When the starter is operated, current from terminal 50 on the starter solenoid supplies positive (+) current to terminal 86a of the double relay, causing one of the relays -- the fuel pump relay -- to close and send battery voltage from terminal 30 on the starter to the electric fuel pump, via double relay terminals 88y and 88d.

2) Because the ignition is turned on when the starter is operating, ignition primary terminal 15 delivers positive (+) current to double relay terminal 86c, thereby closing the power relay that sends positive (+) current from the battery to all electrical parts of the fuel injection system with the exception of the fuel pump, the cold start valve, and the auxiliary air regulator -- which, except for the cold start valve, receive positive (+) current from the pump relay. The power relay remains closed as long as the ignition is on and will not open again until the ignition is turned off.

3) When the engine has started, the driver moves the key from the start (3) position to the running (2) position. This removes the supply of positive (+) current that was reaching double relay terminal 86a from terminal 50 of the starter -- the current that had originally closed the pump relay. However, the pump relay now receives current from the pump switch in the intake air sensor, via terminal 86b and the resistor of the double relay. Whether or not the pump operates depends on whether or not the pump switch in the intake air sensor opens or closes the pump relay.

4) When the driver stops the engine by turning off the ignition, ignition current no longer reaches double relay terminal 86c. The power relay opens, breaking all positive (+) connections between the fuel injection system and the car's electrical system.

The double relay can be tested electrically to make sure the two relays are opening and closing like they are supposed to.

Here is the test procedure for the double relay:

To Test Current Supply:

1) Detach the double relay from the tank compartment panel. Connect one test probe of a test lamp to terminal 85 of the double relay (which is grounded to the negative post of the battery).

2) Apply the second test probe to terminal 88y. Repeat the test by applying the second test probe to terminal 88z. The test lamp should light during both repetitions of the test. If not, positive (+) battery current is not reaching the terminal to which the second probe is connected.

3) With the ignition turned to the running (2) position, apply the second test probe to terminal 86c. If the test lamp fails to light, positive (+) battery current is not reaching terminal 86c from terminal 15 of the ignition coil.

4) While running the starter (ignition switch in the 3 position), again apply the second test probe to terminal 86c. The test lamp should light, indicating positive (+) battery current from the ignition coil.

5) Again running the starter, apply the second test probe to terminal 86a. The test lamp should light, indicating that positive (+) battery current is reaching the double relay from terminal 50 on the starter solenoid.

NOTE: If positive (+) battery current reaches double relay terminal 86a whether the starter is running or not, the wires to terminals 30 and 50 of the starter solenoid have accidentally been reversed. Correct the wire positions. If positive (+) battery current is reaching the double relay correctly, continue with the next test procedure.

To Test Relay Function:

1) Connect one test probe of a test lamp to terminal 85 of the double relay (which is grounded to the negative post of the battery).

2) While running the starter, apply the second test probe to terminal 88d. If the lamp does not light, the pump relay is not closing and the double relay should be replaced.

3) With the ignition turned to the running (2) position, apply the second test probe to double relay terminal 88b. If no positive (+) battery current reaches terminal 88b, the power relay is not closing and the double relay should be replaced.

(Procedure from the Bentley manual)

Also, I believe the small bolt on the fuel rail is for checking the fuel pressure at the rail, the injectors and rail will bleed themselves while the engine is cranking.  If you think you're not getting power to the coil, check for voltage at terminal 15 on the coil when the key is in the on/run position.

Offline Russ

The Kermy Questions Thread - and updates, Lotsa Fun!

« Reply #27 on: November 21, 2008, 08:27:58 AM »
Right, you shouldn't need to bleed the fuel rail thanks to the fuel pressure valve at the end. It opens up to allow extra fuel to go back into the tank.

Offline ASBug

  • Varnel, Ga
  • Joined: Jan 2008
  • Posts: 3032

The Kermy Questions Thread - and updates, Lotsa Fun!

« Reply #28 on: November 23, 2008, 11:38:51 AM »
Thanks for all the help so far,
The fuel rail pressure is somwhere around 40-50 psi, (guage was sparcely marked).
Main lead on the bosh coil was at 25K ohms. (max was supposed to be 10,500....) replaced it, filed the points and boom, it sputtered off the ether.

I HAVE THE BUS RUNNING!!!

I got the car to idle for 10 seconds at the time w/ ether, no skipping or  missing.  

The problem is the injectors, 2 of them just will not open...(#1, and #2). The other two I worked with and got to function.  I have put 45 PSI on the line with it having been cleaned with carb cleaner.  I cannot get them to actuate.  ( hooked them up to the Air compressor, with a plug of carb cleaner on the inlet side.  Has any one ever ressurected a stuck set of injectors?

I did a search and Zen seems to have resurected a set of injectors with a wire and alot of patience (not a VW set though.)

The VW injectors do not seem to be built in such a way as to be servicable, but there is a core charge on them, so they must be able to take apart.

I can order a cheepy set for $40 each, but do not want to sink another $160 into the engine just now.  If anyone has any old take offs from a carburation conversion.  I would be interested in them.  
Thanks.
KC

Offline ASBug

  • Varnel, Ga
  • Joined: Jan 2008
  • Posts: 3032

The Kermy Questions Thread - and updates, Lotsa Fun!

« Reply #29 on: November 23, 2008, 11:48:42 AM »
Oh yeah,
That plug was for the TDC marker light, I traced the lines back to the test block and they corresponded to the wire paths for the TDC indicator on the wireing diagram.
The other 3 wires are still AWOL and not plugged up.  There are only a few brown with silver dot wires on the wiring diagram and they all seem to be accounted for.  If it wasn't for the white / yellow wire, I would just ground them to the body and be done with it....

I'll try to get a better photo of the wires in question today.
Thanks,
KC

There was an error while liking
Liking...

About Us

Chattanooga's oldest and largest club for air-cooled and water-cooled Volkswagens, since 1998. Join Us

Follow Us

© 1998-2025 Scenic City Volks Folks