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Topic: herkie-jerkie  (Read 8315 times)

Offline eakanator

  • Rome, Ga
  • Joined: Apr 2004
  • Posts: 254

herkie-jerkie

« on: September 22, 2006, 07:53:08 PM »
What else can cause a little herkie-jerkie when going down the road. If your going regular speed, she drives pretty good, when your down around 35 or 40 mph's, you get this little herkie-jerkie going on, so you have down shift, for it to smooth out a little, but then if you slow down some more, you get the little jerkie some more.
Still can hear a little pinging as you go down the road as well.
 I replaced points with electonic ign, plugs, plug wires. rotor.
Timing maybe off by a couple degrees, but seems to do it no matter where I set the timing. (when the rotor button is above the marks on the dist. the plley is a couple degrees off from 0)
Can trash in the carb cause it, even If it runs decent at 55?  Thought about  spraying carb cleaner down the barrel but haven't yet.  
When I changed the plugs, they looked decent, I think #1 (front left, drivers side, looked black and sooty).

Any input would be appreciated.
Thanks
Ron

Offline certdubtech

  • In the Garage...
  • Joined: May 2006
  • Posts: 3199

herkie-jerkie

« Reply #1 on: September 23, 2006, 12:42:34 AM »
Ron, front left (driver's side) is actually #3 cylinder.  typically, there are three types of black fouled plugs..Usually, a wet, filmy black plug indicates oil getting past the valve guides/rings and accumulating in the combustion chamber.  This leaves a residue on the plugs.  A dry, black plug that looks chalky is usually an indicator that you have a rich fuel mixture.  Last, a wet black plug when you pull it out that quickly dries off but smells of fuel usually indicates a cylinder that is misfiring.  Basically, it's getting fuel in there but, for whatever reason, its not getting burned (bad plug wire, etc).  Any of these can cause a miss/ lack of power  that can lead to the "herkie-jerkie" that you speak of.  I'd say check the fuel mixture/ trash in the carb scenario first.  Poorly adjusted fuel (too much or too little) can result in the "no difference" timing adjustment you mentioned.  Also, if the car is running rich, they will tend to bog down, causing a symptom like you describe.

Offline eakanator

  • Rome, Ga
  • Joined: Apr 2004
  • Posts: 254

herkie-jerkie

« Reply #2 on: September 23, 2006, 08:04:59 AM »
Thanks, The plug was chalky/ souty.. Before adjusting any mixture, would it do any good to spray claeaner in the carb?  Don't want to create two problems..
Ron

Offline Ret.Bugtech

herkie-jerkie

« Reply #3 on: September 23, 2006, 10:39:05 AM »
I haven't heard where you have the timing set. What marks do you have on your pulley ?  Which mark are you using ?

Offline eakanator

  • Rome, Ga
  • Joined: Apr 2004
  • Posts: 254

herkie-jerkie

« Reply #4 on: September 23, 2006, 12:24:25 PM »
Had sold my timing light when I moved and hadn't purchased another one yet. (started to buy one last night). but, right now when the rotor is above the marks on the distributor where cylinder 1 fires, the pulley is between 0 and 2 degrees ATDC (this is a EMPI pulley).  

Seems to be doing a little better today or not as jerkie, yesterday timing was about 5 degrees BTDC. made above chnges this morning.

Thanks
Ron

Offline Ret.Bugtech

herkie-jerkie

« Reply #5 on: September 23, 2006, 03:01:37 PM »
Go buy a timing light.  When you say EMPI pulley it has the degree #s ?
 Set your timing with the engine  running about 900-1000 rpm to 32 degrees total advance. Don't worry about where it idles. It might idle at 7 or 5 or 9 degrees. Who cares . You don't idle around town do you ?   Just remember 32 is the magic number.  Once you have that under control and you still have a problem at least timing will not be in question.

Offline eakanator

  • Rome, Ga
  • Joined: Apr 2004
  • Posts: 254

herkie-jerkie

« Reply #6 on: September 23, 2006, 03:34:01 PM »
Will do and thank you and yes this EMPI pulley does have the degrees marked on it, so, should  be alble to mark it the 32 degrees..

Offline Ret.Bugtech

herkie-jerkie

« Reply #7 on: September 24, 2006, 12:30:15 PM »
Ron, Is your EMPI pulley the same dia. as your stock pulley ?
       Stock pulley is about  6 3/4" in dia.  The only reason I'm asking is that some pulleys are smaller in dia. and turn the  gen. less RPM at a given crankshaft RPM.  These pulleys were called "Power pulleys" . It takes less horse power to turn them at speed . If I can remember correctly ,it takes about 4-5 HP to turn a stock set up and less to turn a "Power Pulley" , but it also cuts down on cooling and charging rate of your gen./fan.
        Did you state that your engine seemed to run on the hot side ? This could cause a hard start when hot after a long run on the road. With the summer temps we had this year, I wonder if this could have had a effect on your engine ,like the carb loading up, slow cranking speed etc,etc. Sort of like vapor locking.
        I'm getting pickey now.
    All of this above has nothing to do to the way you set your Timing. Its still 32 degrees no matter what size your pulley is.

Offline eakanator

  • Rome, Ga
  • Joined: Apr 2004
  • Posts: 254

herkie-jerkie

« Reply #8 on: September 24, 2006, 02:39:30 PM »
The pulleys are the same size, don't think this one is what is considered the "Power pulley, it only reads the degrees.  The engine wasn't getting hot, it was more cranking slow if at all after getting hot.. Replaced the starter with the Bosch SR15x. The first one had a solonoid that worked sometimes, so swaped it out for another one.. This one is doing great so far and solved the problem of  not starting after getting hot.
I guess I need some white out or something to mark the 32 degree mark on the pulley so I can see when I put hte light to it.
Also would I then leave the advanced on the dist.  hooked up to or better to disconnect while timing?

Thanks

Offline Ret.Bugtech

herkie-jerkie

« Reply #9 on: September 24, 2006, 06:01:50 PM »
You can leave the vacumn advance hooked up. I thought the degree marks were there on the pulley. If they are you can put a little bit of paint etc on the back edge to see better. Is this what you are talking about ?

Offline Jason

  • Ringgold Ga
  • Joined: Apr 2005
  • Posts: 576

herkie-jerkie

« Reply #10 on: September 24, 2006, 09:01:46 PM »
One of my buggys did the same thing can't remember what I did to fix it.

Offline eakanator

  • Rome, Ga
  • Joined: Apr 2004
  • Posts: 254

herkie-jerkie

« Reply #11 on: September 24, 2006, 09:10:18 PM »
Sorry, yes the degrees are one the pulley and putting a little paint just to see is what meant.. Thanks..

Offline eakanator

  • Rome, Ga
  • Joined: Apr 2004
  • Posts: 254

herkie-jerkie

« Reply #12 on: September 27, 2006, 06:19:59 PM »
ok,  When the bug was cold and it first started the timing light was showing around 34 degrees after warming up and idled down a little, it was bouncing around 28 or 29 degrees.. when I hold it wide open it goes up to 58 degrees.. If I hold it to where I think it was around 1000 rpms, it was right around 32 degrees, but then thatt's a guess as to what the rpms really are..


ron

Offline Zen

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  • LaFayette, GA
  • Joined: Dec 2001
  • Posts: 8842
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herkie-jerkie

« Reply #13 on: September 29, 2006, 01:07:38 AM »
Quote from: "eakanator"
.. when I hold it wide open it goes up to 58 degrees..


Ron . . . back it off to 32 degrees maximum advance . . . 58 degrees will burn holes through the tops of your pistons if you take it out on the interstate and open it up for a few miles!  Until it melts down it will have a good bit more power than it "should" . . . but it will melt down!  Literaly.  It will look like someone took a torch to the top of the pistons.

IF you were to achieve the ideal timing for a gasoline engine, the fireball that starts at the spark plug would hit the top of the piston as it crosses top dead center.  If the fireball reaches the top of the piston too late, it's already started back down the cylinder . . . the fireball has to "catch up" with the piston before it can push on it.  This robs power and fuel efficency and makes the engine run hotter (don't know exactly why it runs hotter, but it does).  If the fireball reaches the top of the piston BEFORE top dead center, it "hammers" on it.  Since it has more time to burn, and it is getting compressed more as it is burning, you'll gain some power, but you'll create a LOT of heat at the top of the piston in addition to the hammering effect.

The big problem with trying to achieve "ideal" timing in an air-cooled VW is that you only have one timing setting and the rest is a mechanical centrifical and/or vacuum system that is built into the distributor.  As the engine speed increases, the spark has to happen sooner to keep the fireball from having to chase the piston down.  There are different advance "curves" built into different kinds of distributors to try to achieve the ideal timing for a particular application, but even the best aren't even close to perfect for all situations.  "Modern" cars are loaded with sensors and computer controls and can come pretty close to achieving ideal timing regardless of the outside temp., engine temp., rpms, engine load, etc . . . but with your old VW, you've got the built in advance curve and one setting.  So, you want your advance to be as close to ideal as possible at the place it can do the most good (or the most harm if it's wrong) which is cruising down the road at top speed.  Setting the timing to 32 degrees maximum advance will get you close to ideal timing running down the road . . . it'll probably be way off at idle . . . but what 'cha gonn'a do?  Set it 32 degrees maximum advance, lock it down and live with it.

Offline eakanator

  • Rome, Ga
  • Joined: Apr 2004
  • Posts: 254

herkie-jerkie

« Reply #14 on: September 29, 2006, 07:58:47 AM »
Could the 58 degrees be due to, I left the vacum advance hooked up?

Right now everything shows I'm in time.  At the 1000 rpms I'm at 32 degrees, when not running, all marks line up and I'm at TDC..  When Idling wam around 800 rpms, it reads around 27-28 degrees..

after this last timing, it cranks great, shutsoff great, even drives pretty decent.

Still hear a little pinging sometimes going down the road, and after warming up at idle, the engine rocks a little. but now that may be due to the carb.

And I'm going by the degree marks on the pulley.

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